Tag your events: Roleplay or Storytelling

Events, event planning and evaluation.

Postby Saerid » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:13 pm

I'd thought I'd share my views on the subject and the event that took place.

First of all I'll tell something about my background. I've never PnPd, but I've roleplayed a lot. I started in NWN which has a great system as Archi said. I played on a server where we used rolls to determine the outcome and I've never had any complaints about it. Just make sure the rolls aren't DCed too high for some rather common stuff. We had some good GMs and nice events and usually they autorolled us players to determine various situations.

Anyways enough about that. I know GMing is probably very difficult. I haven't tried it, but I can imagine it's not easy especially if you want a fixed outcome. I would comment the event that took place to be entertaining and even if it was chaotic I enjoyed it. The thing that didn't go so well imo was that I didn't find all the actions plausible. This is just some constructive criticism, nothing more.

Here's my take on it:

Since this was a fixed event it shouldn't be dragged it out too much. A plausible situation needs to take place and make sure that players can't change the outcome too much. The leash should be very tight here. What I didn't find plausible about the event was that Talrion took way too much shit from the Thorn and he got too personal in running things himself. Especially himself taking the hostage and the bickering continuing left me pondering.

If we look at the basic situation... A messenger arrives informing the Thorn two of them have been taken hostage. Now here's us the good guys, who I think care enough of the two that we don't want to risk their lives and the bad guys who want to accomplish something. I think this part went well except maybe all the threatning was dragged out too much. It was an entertaining read though.

Now I don't know what the messenger told Sayvara, but apparently he was gonna take us to Talrion and he even unarmed most of us. At this point we should most certainly have known we'd be led into a situation where out bargaining skill is set to 0 vs 100 of the bad guys since it's 99% sure to be a trap with us being outnumbered. Okay so we get lead in and we meet Talrion. At this point the usual insulting begins and that's okay, but when the GM tells us we're surrounded by bandits. I mean Talrion could've probably have killed us all with the wave of a hand. All this seemed to have been forgotten in the event by us players and so the GM could've enforced this.

Since it's a fixed event (okay we did not know it at this point and that's why the emphasis could've been strengthened) it's not like we can beat Talrion now so we have to take his crap. Also do we really risk the lives of the two Thorns, by all this backtalk? Wouldn't we be more worried that he might just cut them up unless we obey? Talrion could've put more some more weight on his threats too in order to make sure he's in charge. He could've for example just told his lackeys to drag the two girls from behind the stone up on the slope and hold a knife on their throats and then tell Wulf to kneel. Now this would be a situation where Wulf is put up against the decision of having the death of one of them on his conscience or swallowing his pride. Would he have the balls to backtalk at this point? Talrion also took quite a lot of crap from Beo. At least if we're the good guys we should really do as he says here since well we can't really do anything else. In the end he could've killed one of them just being a mean bastard or to make a point. Now when he cut the elf, forgot the name sorry, can we really just start charging? Of course it's up to the individual character and how much they care about Kellidir, but remember we're surrounded by bandits/archers. Then Talrion could've made the Trade to Sayvara, sent her away, backed off and left us to hope he doesn't kill Kellidir. So okay he cuts her, rides away, the bandits back off and we rush to Kellidir which is a fire trap for us and so on..

Now this was just my view on how the event would've been more plausible. If it's fixed I think you need to make sure the players know their place so to say. Also you can discuss and remind in the chat how the situation really is. We're surrounded by bandits etc. I think the ignorance of the real situation dragged out the event unnecessarily and resulted in inplausibility. Also I think us players need to think what would our characters do. Even if we're heroes out there, in rp events we're mortals who can die from one arrow and should think if our actions are plausible. I think the esiest way to create a situation where all these actions players can take, but are not permitted, is to make sure they can't. In this case it was done by surrounding the whole bunch, but us players forgot this at times. Probably hard because all we saw was jovial hobbits dancing on a table enjoying ale. :D

As closing this was just my analysis. I liked the event and Sayvara pulled it off rather well given the circumstances and being a GM for the first time. Fixed events can be a bit tedious since we can't influence much and some characters might have the roll of a bystander which is why you should try to keep the event shorter (this could've probably been an hour shorter at least), but it's still a story that needs to be told to make for other events. I think Adjanah said it well in point 3.

Anyways looking forward to more events. :)

Oh and the storytelling (fixed event) / roleplay tag sounds good to me.
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Postby Haelewulf » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:31 pm

*grins* Point taken there, Saerid... However, as far as the apparent implausibility of Wulf (who is of course involved with Kelli) refusing to kowtow to the nutter, this really is entirely my bad, since I've been so lax at putting up write-ups. Until I can get my act together, here is a brief OOC sum-up, just in case you all are under the impression I'm just a horrible RP'er. :D
Wulf's dissociative... split personalities. In the interests of making it more fun to play and giving it a Tolkien-esque twist, I've made both sides (through Elven intervention) able to communicate with each other, and given them an element of being fairly evenly matched for control of Wulf. This started off as a lack of memory of his past, but was finally catalyzed into full dissociation a couple of weeks ago (which led to his nasty side butchering a nearby camp of bandits with his gauntleted hands. Another reason perhaps that his nasty side doesn't fear them all that much, particularly with their leader close, and so easily hit by stray arrows, etc.)
I usually signal a change with a twitch of some description, to symbolize the turnover of control from one to the other.
All that to say, the Wulf that the Thorn know and love, would indeed have bowed, and in fact not have raised a finger to the captain for fear of reprisal to Kelli in the first place.
The "other" Wulf, however, is a better warrior than "good Wulf", and incidentally psychopathic. Without empathy, a person cares nothing for those around him, and this is what separates the two. When Wulf's feeling anger and hatred, it's easier for his psychopathic side to take the upperhand, where as when he feels love, friendship, honour and all that good stuff, his nasty side can't deal with it.
Thus... Good Wulf allowed the cheeky messenger to live, allowed himself to be disarmed, and so on... but also at that point decided that if it came down to it, he would allow Nasty Wulf free rein if it meant the death of the one responsible. And when the captain spat in his face, Nasty Wulf took over... until Good Wulf wrestled back control while being held down by Sayvara and Candil.
And so on and so forth, with Nasty reappearing when Thary was slain, and relinquishing control after attacking the bandits around the fallen Kelli.
Complex, I know, but hopefully it explains the somewhat erratic behavior exhibited. :) It's damn fun to play, though.
Hope that wasn't too "spoiler-ish", but until I can get my act together and put up the write-ups from the last couple weeks, I could see it would cause more confusion than enjoyment.
Hope that clears things up a little!
Wulfy :)
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Postby Saerid » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:03 pm

Well Wulfy I just took you as an example in the event. I think all of us acted a bit in a way that was off from our characters and that doesn't mean we're bad rpers. It means we just couldn't get into the situation fully. This could probably be explained by the lack of seriousness because we didn't see what we were facing. We didn't see any bandits, just a maniac and his messenger. We didn't see the girls, how bruised etc. they were. Since we don't see the situation it we might put it off a bit to the back of our brain and go for the more casual style and be a bit lax with some actions. That's why the surroundings need to be made clear and just what kind of situation we're facing and then go from there. We can't, sadly, just animate 100 bandits like in NWN. GMs should remind and update what's happening aswell.

Your explanation sure filled in some holes though on Wulf's part and it makes sense now. :)
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Postby Lildarwen » Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:11 pm

To explain my actions:

First: the messenger behaved bad and insulted us - useless - a messenger (he is a bad guy remember) like this would be scared that he has a one way ticket. Because he thinks what his boss would do to a messenger like that. So he only has to rely on the Thorn's to care more for the hostages than his boss would do. In this case he would try not to anger the Thorns - go in - deliver message - bring them in.
That would have been a behaviour of a minion. This Durkan showed behaviour like a boss with a hundred minions in its back.
Nevertheless - he was not to bribe - he was not to convince to act nicer - it was something unrealistic. No real messenger would be a crazy fool like this Durkan - and even Tarlion would have known better than to send him.

Second: Lil behaved all nice and well - knowing she was lead into a deadly trap. As soon as Tarlion killed Tharynien, Lil charged. Why?
The answer is simple. Killing a hostage shows that Tarlion does not take care if he succeeds or not. It was obvious to Lil that he would kill Kellidir too. That he would kill all the Thorns. She knew she was surrounded by archers.
So she saw her only charge to go into melee with Tarlion - so his archers would not shoot.

In fact Saerid is right: a much better situation would have been to keep the hostages out of range of the Thorns - on a rock - on a hill. The whole situation was not very well thought through.

And again: first rule to a GM is to accept that the players will not always do what he wants them to do. That is part of the game.

And it is not 'the GM always wins' - no - it is 'the GM has always to be fair'.

Look into any RP compendium - they will explain it on a the first pages.

And another thing: a roleplay is not a single-lead storytelling - both sides have to have fun.

My fun was destroyed as every action I have taken was either ignored (a natural 20... wow... I was so happy as I have thrown it) or hindered - I had no chance - I was treated unfair - I was pissed.

I would have spent the evening better in reading a book or watching a movie. That's my point.

But I am not angry on anybody - so please don't think I blame Sayv or anybody else. It's just my opinion I am telling here.

Thanks
Lil
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Postby Adjanah » Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:28 pm

Guys...please...let what happened at that event lie. We're all agreed that things could have been handled better. Take it as a lesson for all of us, and stop digging in that wound. Bad calls were made, but I for like to think we came out the other end stronger and more into what each of us like.

Let's move forward, hm?
Last edited by Adjanah on Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Saerid » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:09 pm

Aye to infinity and beyond!

Oh and once again these were just some of my pointers. Apologies if I upset someone. That was never the point.
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Postby Haelewulf » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:24 am

Oh, I wasn't offended, worry not, bro. :) For my part, I just realized I needed to clarify stuff. But by all means, let's learn and move past it!
Let the good times roll! :D
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Re: Tag your events: Roleplay or Storytelling

Postby Felaion » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:58 pm

Having not been at this event, I only have a vague idea about what's going on here, but I recognise the situation to somwhere very close to heart.

You may or may not know that I run a fairly causal RP group on JK3: Jedi Academy Multiplayer. (Not the easiest thing in the world) In the system, I am know as the RP Admin, or basically the GM. Now the guys I work with are most certainly not seasoned RPers, and have never really touched MMO's or even any kind of pen and paper. Thus, it's not particually easy, as they don't like to have their characters pushed around etc, etc.

This is, in a way, similar to problems like the one I think you've been describing here. Most of the Thorn, are heroes. Especially Wulf. Anyway, that said, I know from experience that hostage situations are very difficult to pull off when your GMing. Godemoting should always be frowned upon, as it removes interactiveness, but in some situations, it can be the lesser of two evils.

The point I'm trying to make, is the one I've used for a long time. Never see the GM as your enemy. He/She is your friend, and would never do anything without your consent. And somtimes, you just have to sit back, and be taken for a ride.

That said, I don't want to kick-start any more conversation on the subject, but I wasn't around before Adj said stop! :D
Master Vagandro Rist - Jedi Sage & Diplomat
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